Comment on Jefferson’s plan for public education, particularly on what his plan says about what TJ saw as the purpose of education. How do Jefferson’s aims compare to Mann’s aims? Feel free to also consider the plans’ shortcomings, but do your best to keep things in historical perspective.
Through reading Jefferson's articles I discovered that Thomas Jefferson definitely had a vision in his mind of what education will do for society. His goal was to preserve the republican government by giving students the opportunities to go to school and the best ones (males) will represent the rest of the citizens after university (hopefully) through becoming "legislators, governors and jurists who would provide governmental leadership" . Also, another goal of education for the bases of society on an individual level was to prepare students for "lifelong learning". I think Jefferson had both goals in mind as how can education help society and help the citizen on individual scale as well. Compared to Horace Mann's goals, who believed that education would be an "equalizer" for the masses to bring them out of poverty so that one can climb the ladder to become wealthy is not covered in Jefferson's plan of education on a economic level. In addition, Mann mentions that public schools is a place to instill morals and values in students, while Jefferson uses education to squeeze out the most intelligent men through vigorous education to help the future of the republic. While, he leaves the rest of the mass of people to learn enough to carry out daily life activities. Jefferson uses the method of " meritocracy" while Horace Mann does not. Overall, I feel like during that time Jefferson's plan was pretty solid. United States just recently become an independent country, so to establish a fair and just government was a priority for that time and on the mind of great thinkers like Jefferson. Even though reading the articles felt like he was not giving much opportunities to females, but if I look at the historical perspective he was giving females the opportunity to learn and that was considered a lot for that time.
ReplyDeleteThomas Jefferson thought that education worked on a few different levels. There was the most basic education that allowed you to function in everyday life- particularly in the areas of communication and finance- and then the more advanced levels of education that molded future leaders. However, the most important aspect to Jefferson was that these schools were creating an informed citizen population, allowing democracy to thrive. This idea has prevailed and is still, in my opinion, one of the most important goals we think about when we consider the purposes of schooling. We have built entire public school systems on the idea that children are the future, and that they must be well educated in order for our society to function- which I think is a fair assumption.
ReplyDeleteJefferson’s plan and Mann’s plan both emphasize the social impact of schooling. Jefferson saw education as important for the advancement of democracy, and Mann saw that the common school would help solve social ills including prejudice. However, these goals are distinct in the one seeks to identify the future leaders and the other seeks to, you might say, even the playing field. Jefferson’s plan involves selecting the best students to continue their schooling on scholarship in hopes that they will one day become well educated leaders. Mann’s plan seeks to educate rich and poor together in the hopes that class divisions will be diffused and that everyone will have equal opportunity for advancement.
Like Sachi said, Jefferson wanted to keep the republican form of government and it was very important for boys to get educated more so than girls. He thought it was important for girls to be somewhat educated so that when they become mothers, they can educate their male children if their fathers are not able to teach them. It seems that he didn’t want women to have more education than men because he didn’t want women to be smarter than them and therefore gain more power. His plan for public education in elementary school was to educate all “free” boys and girls and allow them to learn the basics they would need for life. Then only the smartest boys would be allowed to move onto grammar school. He wanted his plan to be used so that the smartest boys would go on to become political leaders. Out of the boys that went to grammar school, half were chosen to go to the university. Mann wanted to see everyone receive education on the same level no matter who you were and what your income was, this is different from Jefferson who saw it more important for boys to be educated. Mann wanted all classes of people to go to school together, that way they would be seen more as equals. Jefferson was more concerned about educating the wealthy versus the poor.
ReplyDeleteThomas Jefferson had a well thought out plan for Virginia during his time. He saw the plan of education as a way to help all of the public by giving them three free years of school which went over basic subjects like math so they could sell goods and pay taxes and writing and reading for communication. Reading had other purposes like learning through books after the three years were done. He saw these basic skills as necessary for members of society to be able to function. He felt like a well educated society would be able to self govern. I feel like this idea, though obvious to us now, was a bold move when considering that education used to be seen as a rich man's game. His realization that democracy would leave America better off was a huge step in the 1700s. He also envisioned the schooling system as a way to find the "top" boys from each elementary school and send them on to grammar school with the public money. Though this is an interesting concept, I highly doubt Horace Mann would agree with such unequal treatment in education. The playing field isn't necessarily leveled if a small percentage are allowed to educate themselves more while the others are pushed aside for demeaning labor. Horace Mann would have liked to see more values instilled in the public education sector in order for society to function as well as all social classes be given fair treatment. But I do feel like Thomas Jefferson was heading in the right direction by creating public schools when there were none before till he suggested it in the United States.
ReplyDeleteThe major short coming I see would be that in most cases, the poor stays poor and the rich will still be the ones receiving education which would increase the social gap. Though scholarship educations were given to the top scholars with a poor background, that still wouldn't close the gap between the classes.
Thomas Jefferson believed that the role of education should play a part in everyone's life; man, woman, children, and even slaves. Though the belief is that education should play a role in everyone's life, the amount or significance of the roles varied from class or gender of people. From Jefferson's perspective, for a man, education would play tremendous role. It would serve the purpose of upbringing those generations of "well-informed people" (which would be men) and building them into leaders who will initially preserve the republican government. His vision of the education for women was quite different from that of his vision for a man. He believed that women should be education, but only to serve as an aid to their motherly duties. Women were only to be educated enough, so when they become mothers, they can educate their own daughters, and guide the pathways of their sons with absent fathers. Though the idea was greatly frowned upon at this time period, Jefferson also believed that slaves should in some way, receive some form of education. The education of the slaves would of course be at the bottom of the "education food chain", if you will. In contrast, Mann, had a vision of education equality. Meaning that the and rich, would all receive the same levels of education; he wanted to break the social classification barriers and bring everyone together. Jefferson, on the other hand, wanted to keep the social and gender barriers and administer higher (more quality) education for those in the upper class and lower education for the lower class. Sort of like the saying "Keep the rich, rich...and the poor, poor". In a rather discrete way, this same "keep the rich, rich" mentality still exists in our government today.
ReplyDeleteThomas Jefferson's proposed educational structure of elementary schools, grammar schools, the university, and lifelong learning was a beautiful vision of Virginia that encouraged learning to further advance every occupation, career, and the individual. Jefferson, although defeated in the Virginia legislature, believed that education was the foundation for the future and that it all started in the elementary schools. When comparing Mann to Jefferson, the latter seemed to focus more on the individualistic side and tried to bring out the best of the bunch. Those selected few would grow up to represent the whole in government jobs that require leadership and to be frank, the credentials. However, Mann believed that school should be the critical factor to drive out social problems such as poverty and prejudice. Furthermore, their indifference was in Mann's ideal future of an educated, non-prejudiced, opportunistic citizen. To conclude, I wholly agree with Alanna's opinion on the Mann/Jefferson plans. With both plans undoubtedly educating and helping the rich, the social gap will widen and prejudice is inevitable.
ReplyDeleteJefferson’s stance on education was built on idealistic democratic principle. Intellectually rigorous; undoubtedly rewarding, the “elementary” education which Jefferson put forth would necessarily provide all individuals with the appropriate knowledge to make educated political investments, through the understanding of their rights and the ability to evaluate officeholders’ conduct. Jefferson believed that it was at the University level that true leaders distinguished themselves, be it in politics, social conducts, the sciences or otherwise. Contrastingly, Mann thought that education should be designed not to distinguish individuals, but to equalize them, in hopes of eliminating prejudices, poverty, etc. Mann thought that all people should receive the same education. As others have implied (Alanna, Kevin) both plans were essentially too lofty to maintain future subsistence, as prejudice and social discriminations will always exist. Just as well, through means of corruption, influence, or privatized education, the rich will always have the upper hand.
ReplyDeleteWhat most interested me about Thomas Jefferson’s purpose of education was his perspective on the purpose of education. He saw education as an instrumental tool in society that would exhibit everyday life functions. Moreover, according to Jefferson, the system of education is priceless because of its function to construct an intellectual, engage citizen populace allowing ideals such as federalism, democracy, and equality to flourish in many ways. The only flaw in Jefferson’s vision or plan is that it would focus on letting the “best” or the richest to have more opportunities rather than the poor.
ReplyDeleteOn the other end of the spectrum, Horace Man believed that education should be equal for all without the use of social status or barriers that divide in a community. Mann believed in the advancement of the community, while Jefferson believed in the advancement of the “best” or the chosen few.
Thomas Jefferson's view of education was clearly biased towards the individual. As one of the most accomplished and respected statesman of his time, he certainly understood that an individual could truly achieve amazing things with the proper preparation. As others mentioned, this is clearly the focus in not only Jefferson's plan for education, but most of his other writings as well. While he brings up an excellent point about the need for personal and individual development over the course of schooling, in our current system of organizing ourselves this cannot be provided to everybody. While Jefferson would probably argue that it is better to have few highly intellectual people and many "workers" to truly achieve human potential, Mann finds not that favoring any individual over another would be better than having disparity.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, Jefferson had a vision for America, of course: he wrote the founding document. As Tyler mentioned, his stance was build on idealism, and our democratic system has been at many times very un-ideal, mostly because it favors privileged over non-privileged people. But if we had followed Mann's suggestions for education, what problems might have arisen that could be potentially worse than the problems in our education today? In the end, the discussion over education is rooted in the most fundamental human question: Do we value the individual or the group?
Jefferson’s plan for education was revolutionary at the time he was writing about. He wanted to provide every free person with an adequate education so that they would pursue knowledge in their own lives. This leads me to believe that to Jefferson the purpose of the education system was to provide the base for a continued self-education and the education and identification of future leaders. This to me indicates that the purpose of Labaree’s that Jefferson would most agree with would have to be democratic equality. His plan also shares many arguments with that of Horace Mann’s. Both men were seeking to impact and better society through education. Mann believed this could be achieved through using education to level the playing field while Jefferson’s plan provided the tools average people needed to continue their own educations. Jefferson’s plan definitely overlooks women and slaves, but at that point in history it is amazing that he proposed any level of education for them. His four tiered plan started with elementary school where people would learn the basic skills needed, they would then proceed to grammar school and university if they were smart or rich enough. Jefferson also provided guidelines for a scholarship that would provide smart economically disadvantage future leaders a chance to continue their education.
ReplyDeleteJefferson considered education essential to the pursuit of happiness (a basic American right) because happiness, to him, included the pursuit of knowledge. Jefferson proposed an educational structure with four parts: elementary schools, grammar schools, the university, and lifelong learning. Each part had its own goals. Jefferson also proposed to divide Virginia into small districts that would become the local governments and establish elementary schools. This regionalization of government was necessary and practical given the transportation and communication limitations of his time. Elementary schools would provide free education to all students, male and female, for three years. Thus providing them with an understanding of reading, writing, arithmetic, and history, that would serve as a basis for lifelong learning. Jefferson structured public schools with the times in mind when his schools were not the only place of education. Jefferson also proposed a public library for lifelong learning. Jefferson defended educated young girls, saying that education would give them the skills necessary to run a household and educate their own children. I think Jefferson defended women in a way in which the times would allow, however I have my suspicions that he believed women could be intellectual equals of men or at least able to continue further in education. I believe he saw this as a starting point, similar to how he proposed educating slaves, those destined to be freed.
ReplyDeleteHe proposed a scholarship program based on merit, believing schools should work as a screen to recognize future leaders from the commonalities. Another major goal according to Jefferson, and similar to Labaree’s, was instilling the ability of people to govern themselves, which was key to preserving our republican government. At grammar school students would learn languages because Jefferson believed age 10-15 was the best time to learn languages. Jefferson believed graduates would be local leaders, judges, teachers, etc. (by receiving a somewhat higher level of education they head been trained to fill higher level roles, this is kind of like Labaree’s goal of social efficiency). With all students enter university having a common basic education, they could pursue professional and advanced scientific study. Although Jefferson’s plan worked with the simple economy of his time, his fellow legislators did not pass his attempts of educational reform. Jefferson was confident in the future that eventually his goals for education would occur; I believe he was probably reaching too far. Maybe his plans would have been accepted if he had started smaller and amended over time, however that is how our current educational system has developed and I don’t believe it is in a good state. I, like Jefferson, wish his peers had been wise enough to see the merit in Jefferson’s plans, how they could have prevented many troubles for our country by creating his public school system, but instead our country tends to always be “sobered by experience” rather than favoring preemptive problem solving.
Thomas Jefferson's view on schooling wasn't fair if you were considered a poor male, or a female. He did allow three free years of elementary schooling for children, including females, in hopes of finding political leaders, preparing for well informed citizens and prepare girls to become well informed mothers. If you wanted your child wanted to attain further education throughout grammar school and the university levels, then you would have to be wealthy and a male (Females were only allowed to be schooled the first three free years.) Although Jeffersons's views were unfair towards all, he had good intentions for everyone benefitting through his ideas. On the other side of the spectrum, there was Horace Man who wanted everyone to get an equal opportunity in education without needing to be wealthy to afford schooling costs.
ReplyDeleteThomas Jefferson had the believe that elementary schools, grammar schools, the university and lifelong learning are important insights into his conception of education. It would prepare every individual to be successful in every aspect of their lives. He thinks these are the basic knowledge every individual should have in order for their career and understanding to any situation in their lives. But Horace Mann had different views on public education. He believed that everyone should get equal educational opportunity in the community where Jefferson believed people who are more advanced and more skilled about the subject should be selected for higher education.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Allana where she said poor will stay poor and rich people will get higher education because there are many reasons why poor people are away from getting higher education maybe because of financial problem, family problems etc. where rich people are easily getting all the opportunities and receiving higher education without no worries.
Thomas Jefferson's plan for a school system is, to an extent, similar to the school systems in some European countries. Everybody gets a basic education, and only the best of the best will move onto higher education. While it is certainly not fair that some will receive more knowledge and opportunity that other, I feel like he is catering towards democratic equality and social efficiency at the same time. I feel that just because someone does not make it to the University level, then they are not to participate in politics. It's just that those with more education will play a bigger role in politics. This is generally how the system works in modern times. Jefferson recognizes that not just anyone could be leaders, and he is especially vexed at the people who are not as educated as they should be, but are still holding authorial offices.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Jefferson's school system is that, nowadays, people can buy their way into a higher education if they have the means. They do not really need the merits to get into a particular college if they have enough money, or if they've had a history of family members who have attended that institution.
Jefferson's plan for education would fit best under the banner of democratic equality. The elementary schools all free people receiving three served as a way to prepare future citizens of the republic for participation in the newly formed government. The scholarships offered for higher education would serve as an equalizer, because higher education would no longer be limited to those with money. The fact that women would receive the three years of education supports the idea of republican motherhood, so mothers would be educated enough to prepare their sons to be good citizens. The idea of even slaves receiving an education is highly radical for Jefferson's time, and would have been highly opposed by the plantation owners in Virginia as well as other states. However, a problem with Jefferson's plan is the length of schooling (4 or 5 months a year for three years is not very long), as well as the classical approach to the curriculum, because Greek and Latin would not be useful to the majority of the people in the elementary schools. Overall, the plan has good intentions, especially the idea of lifelong education, but is unrealistic.
ReplyDeleteMann's plan for education, however, is more pragmatic. The lengthened school year and minimum requirements for teachers are practical solutions to the problems presented by reformers during that time. The industrialization of the US led to a greater need for an educated workforce, so Mann's ideas fit well into the social efficiency purpose of schooling. Providing a public education at taxpayer expense is an example of this response to manufacturer's needs. Mann had a similar idea to Jefferson about republican motherhood and women's need for education, but they differ in that Mann supported the role of women as teachers. Mann then provided a route for women to gain a higher education which led to employment. On the other hand, Mann viewed schools like factories where the finished product was a good employee, but leaving out room for personal development limits opportunities for individual growth.
Jefferson had a great hold of what he thought the education system should look like. He was very much striving for education to be a public good and for everyone to get a chance to learn in order to live their lives. This included math, reading, writing, ect. His elementary schools were a level that all free children would get to participate in. His system continued to upper level education such as grammar schools and universities but it was only for those with exceptional knowledge or exceptional finances. He wanted to "rake the good from the rubbish" and separate the smart and educated to put them in better professions. He wanted all citizens to be educated in order to make educated decisions and choices in life and politics.
ReplyDeleteHorace Mann on the other hand wanted education to be a "equalizer" in society. He wanted to give everyone a chance to learn even those less fortunate. This idea of leveling the playing field greatly differed from Jefferson's idea. Mann's idea of education also included non-sectarian education so that the schools can accepts children of all cultures and backgrounds. He pushed for longer school terms so that the 4-5 month terms would change to 3-4 month terms. He pushed for better teachers and wider curriculums as well.
In both education plans, their are flaws relating to the time period. With Mann, he wanted non-sectarian education which really didn't settle well with the church leaders of the day. They called it ungodly and immoral. He eventually went on to create non-sectarian forms of education. Jeffersons issues had to do with everyone not being able to get the same opportunities after elementary schools and having the public pay for his program. The money people had to pay out for the system to work was not highly liked by citizens.
Jefferson’s educational ideology seems to have been grounded in his belief that the pursuit of knowledge pertains to happiness and vice versa. I think of the happiness of the individual in relation to that, but happy and content individuals are thought to make for a happy and contented collective. I see his aims for education as being intellectually-based and they served his vision in not only creating an informed body of citizens, but also in serving to locate future leaders, even if that meant they came from less-affluent families. By desiring to provide a free elementary school education, Jefferson viewed education as a public good that was to benefit the whole of society. As far as for female students, Jefferson did not see them as needing higher education, beyond the proposed elementary curriculum. From the historical perspective, he may be right. What I like most about his plan is tier four. Once a person obtained basic literacy, a new world would open up to him or her if he/she desired and/ or had the means to pursue it. Jefferson believed knowledge was a direct link to being free as well supporting a democratic system of government.
ReplyDeleteHorace Mann’s aims of education seem to differ from that of Jefferson’s in that Mann’s key motivator was to provide moral education to provide a shared set of traditional values in light of the changes in society due to the industrialization and urbanization taking place. Public schools were seen a mechanism by which to resolve social problems of the day. Mann also believed that females should receive higher education, or be educated to the extent by which they would make good teachers in the republican motherhood sense. Mann believed that education would make employees more reliable and productive as well as cool tensions stemming from inequalities between social groups.
Challenges to both educational plans were to get people with resources (power and money) to buy-in to the need for public schooling for the masses. I think most of the shortcomings of the plans are mainly due to the time period (i.e. unequal opportunities for all, etc.).